Race/Ethnicity Questions 451-460

THE QUESTION:
R460: It seems to me that having minority organizations or minority subcommittees of “mainstream” organizations only further points out our differences. How can we accept others and not label them if they are already labeling themselves?
POSTED SEPT. 19, 1998
Stacy W., white female, Akron, OH

ANSWER 1:
In a democracy, the majority is supposed to rule. However, there can be strength in unity for minority groups. Because our nation is historically notorious for its exclusionary practices toward people who have not been the “right” color, ethnicity or religion, such unity is often necessary for survival, if not for success. Remember that attempts by members of such groups to join the “mainstream” have historically been met with indifference, contempt and often violence. This treatment has created a climate where such a clan mentality has become the rule of the day. To use a contemporary figure of speech, when you see a group “playing the race card,” you must consider that they would have no need or ability to play that card had it not already been placed in the deck. Unless all of us – including the “dealer,” – recognize that, we are doomed to becoming a nation of ever smaller splinters.
POSTED OCT. 5, 1998
Sam; 30; male; brown American <SamAlex67@aol.com>, Chicago, Il

FURTHER NOTICE:
Don’t blame the “minorities.” They were labeled not by themselves but by the “mainstream” in order to differentiate the “minority” from the mainstream. Many, many longstanding minority organizations grew out of a history of minorities being excluded from, or denied, full and effective participation in mainstream organizations. Many minority “subcommittees” are created to counter the indifference, marginalization and sometimes outright illegalities suffered in “mainstream” organizations. To ask minorities thusly treated to then give up aspiring to those things taken for granted by the mainstream is tantamount to saying minorities are not deserving. To deny our diversity is to deny reality and the many riches that diversity brings. The problem arises not from recognizing the differences, but from abusing and mistreating each other because of these differences.
POSTED OCT. 7, 1998
F.L.W., black male <110555.2423@compuserve.com>, Columbia, Md

FURTHER NOTICE 2:
I feel minority organizations are a “divine” equalizer toward the substandard disposition of minorities in the United States. I also believe if these organizations did not exist, minorities’ rights would decline rather than advance, because white racists would be free to practice racism with no restrictions, and non-racist whites would not be free to practice equity (because of pressure from white racists to “conform”). This is the plight of the non-racist white: Not only do they have to deal with minorities who think they are racist, but they also have to fight off their racist contemporaries trying to “convert” them.
POSTED NOV. 9, 1998
Alonzo C., 32, African American, Jacksonville, FL
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THE QUESTION:
R459: Why do some light-skinned black people discriminate against dark-skinned black people?
POSTED SEPT. 19, 1998
Whitney T., 18, dark-skinned black female <wkthomps@olemiss.edu>, Oxford, MS

ANSWER 1:
Oops! The questioner just aired some very dirty linen about us black folks. Although the problem is not as bad as it once was, there does exist a tradition of racism among blacks based on skin color. Why this occurs I will leave to a sociologist to answer. However, it is good to keep this in mind when I begin feeling too self-righteous regarding the racial transgressions committed by my white brothers.
POSTED SEPT. 25, 1998
S. Finley, male, African American <sfinley@earthlink.net>, Naperville, IL

FURTHER NOTICE:
Unfortunately, we as African Americans are guilty of that, but I don’t think it’s just discrimination on the part of our lighter-skinned brothers and sisters. It goes both ways. In my experience, it seems that sometimes it has to do with lighter-skinned blacks thinking that the closer you are to being white, the better you are, or with darker-skinned blacks taking the view that if you’re light-skinned, you’re too close to being white. All in all, I think we sometimes lose sight of the beauty of black people. We come in so many lovely shades that there is no reason to divide ourselves over the shades we happen to be.
POSTED OCT. 14, 1998
Toni H, black female, 24, Houston, TX
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THE QUESTION:
R458: I live in a university area and regularly see young, black male students who are branded as part of their fraternity initiations. I often wonder about the origins and symbolism of the branding ritual, as well as how, 130-plus years after slavery, these organizations perceive it as positive to subject their members to branding.
POSTED SEPT. 14, 1998
Tim Q., 39, white, Cincinnati , OH

ANSWER 1:
I am a black male who got a brand 25 years ago. Cult symbolism can sometimes overtake rational reasoning. One could also ask: Why do millions of whites tattoo their bodies with various symbols?
POSTED SEPT. 23, 1998
Prez, 44, black male <ANABWI@aol.com>, Plantation, FL

FURTHER NOTICE:
In many cultures (such as my own), branding or “scarification” is a tradition affiliated with representing one’s warrior status. You might be interested to look up some of the symbolic Fijian designs. It’s become as commercial as Mendi (henna tattooing) or tattooing, which has cultural significance, also.
POSTED DEC. 30, 1998
Taneia, 25, mixed ethnicity <taneia@sprint.ca>, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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THE QUESTION:
R457: Are young Asian Americans intent on assimilating into white culture? I rarely see young Asian Americans overtly celebrating their heritage the way African Americans, the Irish, Mexicans, Poles, etc. , do. Also, I see more Asian/white couples than I do Asian/Asian couples. Am I wrong, or are Asians quietly assimilating into white culture?
POSTED SEPT. 11, 1998
K. Green, black male <KennyG9@yahoo.com>, Chicago, IL

ANSWER 1:
It’s interesting that posting R456 gives the completely opposite opinion. I think it depends on where Asian Americans grew up. In areas with large Asian populations, such as Los Angeles or New York City, there tends to be a more tight-knit community with a stronger sense of ethnic identity. The same principle holds true for old Irish American or Jewish American communities in Boston or New York. Along these lines, a major issue in the Jewish community is the rapidly declining sense of ethnic identity and the high rate of out-marriage (marrying gentiles). As Jews move away from traditionally Jewish centers like New York, and as they are increasingly accepted as full members of the American mainstream (a la Seinfeld and the decline in overt anti-Semitism), the out-marriage phenomenon will undoubtably increase. A similar situation exists for Asian Americans who perhaps grew up in areas with few Asians and were socialized in white mainstream society.
POSTED OCT. 5, 1998
Ray, 24, Asian American <yangban@erols.com>, Washington, DC

FURTHER NOTICE:
I am a Japanese person living in the United States (non-citizen, resident alien). I have a potential theory about your observation. Asians (at least from my point of view) actually tend to stick together as a community very well, due to our sense of commitment and loyalty to the larger “family” around us. I think that is a part of the reason you see China-towns, Japanese-towns and other Asian-concentrated sections in cities around the world. When you step into this community, you will see lots of Asians hanging out together. However, these Asians who live in a tight-knit community among themselves tend to be shy about venturing into the rest of the world individually. Individuality is not as strongly emphasized in Asian cultures. So my theory is that the Asians you see are more exceptions than the norm of Asians who live outside Asia.
POSTED OCT. 7, 1998
Japanese <ari@tkp.com>, Austin, TX

FURTHER NOTICE 2:
I think the issue is more complicated than Asian Americans being “intent” on assimilating. In my experience there are some Asians who are so tradition-oriented that they are very intent on retaining a strong sense of Asian culture and self-described “values” without necessarily any real regard to assimilation per se. This is especially true of many (though certainly not all) first-generation immigrants. Many of these Asians live in “Asiatowns,” but there are some in the “whiter” suburbs as well. Then there are other first-generation immigrants and families who for some reason develop an almost classist and sometimes quasi-racist mentality when they are or become very successful and often try almost too hard to be “liked” by or impress whites, while still trying to cling to a notion of conservative Asian values. This is why you see such ultra-rich and otherwise “white” suburbs like Oak Brook, Ill., attracting many high-achieving Asians (Oak Brook’s Asian population is around 20 percent). Most Asians, however, lead fairly “average” lives without too many extremes, though I must say the Asian community in my opinion has a lot of work to do on the race relations front, especially with other non-whites. Also keep in mind most Asians (with obvious exceptions like Vietnamese refugees) already came to the United States as middle-to-upper class folks, so their experience is on average very different from African Americans and Hispanics.
POSTED NOV. 23, 1998
Mihir, Indian, male, 25 <mishah@vt.edu>, Skokie, IL
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THE QUESTION:
R456: I have noticed that a lot of Asians do not seem to date people of other races. Is this some sort of cultural “rule” or somehting?
POSTED SEPT. 11, 1998
Karen P., 31, white female, Denver, CO

ANSWER 1:
Asian immigrants, like other immigrants, obviously feel more comfortable with people who share the same native language and culture as they do. American ex-pats in other countries tend to find each other as well. Asian Americans, depending on their environment and socialization, could go either way.
POSTED OCT. 5, 1998
Ray, 24, Asian American <yangban@erols.com>, Washington , DC
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THE QUESTION:
R455: To Japanese Americans: How do you feel about the fact that the U.S. media has spent so much time discussing the Holocaust but has mostly ignored discussion of the Japanese-American internment camps in operation in the United States during the same time?
POSTED SEPT. 10, 1998
Laura W., 37, Jewish female, <lauraw@cobalt.cnchost.com>, Los Angeles, CA

ANSWER 1:
Wow, someone cares. I’m not Japanese American, but I feel strong empathy for what happened to them during World War II. I recall seeing a posting on a newsgroup once from a guy who wanted to know why the U.S. government was compensating Japanese when “the Japanese government didn’t compensate American POWs.” How incredibly ignorant. That’s why I admire men like U.S. Sen. Daniel Inouye, who volunteered to fight for his country right out of the internment camps, even though the rest of America considered him a “Jap” and incarcerated his family.
POSTED OCT. 5, 1998
Ray, 24, Asian American <yangban@erols.com>, Washington , DC

FURTHER NOTICE:
Thank you for asking. As a Japanese person living in the United States, I do think about the issues surrounding World War II quite a bit. What does bother me is that while Americans seem to remember Pearl Harbor and bring it up every year, they seem to have forgotten two atomic bombs they dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I don’t want to justify what my countrymen did at Pearl Harbor, but what happened there doesn’t even compare to the genocide that occurred in those two cities, as well as what happened in the Tokyo and Osaka area from massive bombing. Many, many more people died in much more painful, cruel ways in Japan from those bombings. On the other hand, Japanese history books don’t address even a tiny bit of the massacre, rape and genocide that we did in greater Asia up until World War II. We basically enslaved and robbed Korea, China, Mongolia, Thailand, Taiwan, the Philippines, Vietnam and other Asian countries that Japan occupied. This bothers me as well. I hope this sheds light on your question about the camps for the Japanese in United States during that war. It bothers me that both sides of the issue are not addressed, but we Japanese are as guilty as Americans.
POSTED OCT. 7, 1998
Japanese <ari@tkp.com>, Austin, TX

FURTHER NOTICE 2:
I am the Archivist for the Japanese Canadian National Museum and Archives in Vancouver, B.C. The Japanese in Canada faced the same discrimination during World War II as Japanese Americans. In dealing with the Japanese in Canada, there seems to be a pervasive attitude that although they acknowledge the horrors of Canada’s recent history, there is an attitude of “letting the past go and moving on.” A very positive attitude, although often viewed with a sense of denial of the past injustices forced upon them. While the principles of segregating and confining Japanese during the time were similar to the European Jewish experience, Japanese Canadians weren’t slaughtered, a tremendous difference. However, in relative terms, the Japanese lost their property and dignity, and many were forced to denounce their Canadian citizenship or move to Japan, a place many had never been to or could not entirely relate to. It is vitally important to never take the rights and freedoms we currently cherish for granted.
POSTED OCT. 7, 1998
S. Foster, archivist (bi-racial) <jcnmas@bc.sympatico.ca>, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

FURTHER NOTICE 3:
What we did to Japanese Americans in World War II was bad, but to me it is an outrage to compare it to the Holocaust, where more than six million defenseless Jews were murdered.
POSTED OCT. 8, 1998
Al, Jew, 66 <maydec1@mailexcite.com>, Fort Pierce, FL

FURTHER NOTICE 4:
Six million people were gazed and burned by the Nazis during World War II. How many Japanese Americans were? How can you (Jewish) compare a racial slaughter with a security (even if unfair) matter?
POSTED OCT. 8, 1998
FDON, 60, French republican <fdondon@minitel.net>, Paris, France

FURTHER NOTICE 5:
My neighbors, who are Japanese Americans and close friends, were interned in Utah during World War II. While there is lingering bitterness, both of them (they’re a married couple) have never complained, at least not about getting enough “attention” vis-a-vis the Holocaust. Perhaps it’s that I’ve lived among more or less progressive and forward-thinking people (and I live in a suburb with a high Jewish and Asian population), but most people I know have knowledge about both the horrible internment of Japanese Americans and the Holocaust. And most of them know to put each terrible event in their appropriate perspective. It is useless if not counter-productive to “compare” the two events, since I think one-upsmanship of victimization is very corrosive and only divides and polarizes people. The key is to educate people about the history of Japanese internment and the Holocaust on their own merits. There is a lot to learn from both events, but it is a very wrong thing to have the two “compete” against each other.
POSTED NOV. 23, 1998
Mihir, Indian, male, 25 <mishah@vt.edu>, Skokie, IL
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THE QUESTION:
R454: I, as most people are, am aware of the struggles African-American people went through in slavery and even when they were freed and struggled for the same rights as white people. But it does not seem society knows or cares about the troubles Irish people encountered. They were forced into “white slavery” and to this day have religious wars. Is this information generally considered less important than the struggles of African Americans?
POSTED SEPT. 10, 1998
Regina W., Irish white female <reginak@clt-online.com>, Charlotte, NC

ANSWER 1:
From my experience, I have rarely seen/heard anyone make degrading remarks about Irish people. Also, there are still obvious feelings of discontent between whites and blacks today. Even though Irish and African Americans have had similar pasts, it seems as though many people simply can’t get past the color issue.
POSTED SEPT. 22, 1998
White <eric.crabbendam@fmr.com>, Charlotte, NC

FURTHER NOTICE:
I think it is much easier to find racists against black people than it is to find racists against the Catholic Irish, though it would depend largely on which state or country you were in. In Northern Ireland and Scotland, there are very few black people, and so the issue of Catholic Irish vs. Protestant whites is much more in the news and in people’s everyday lives. I have never experienced much anti-Irish feeling in the North of the United States, but then I have usually visited relatives and friends of an Irish background. However, some racists like members of the KKK are against both black people and Irish Catholics. It makes me aware that although our skin colour is the same, many of us have distinctive facial features that could only have come from one island!
POSTED SEPT. 29, 1998
Clare, Irish female, Belfast, Ireland

FURTHER NOTICE 2:
I am of African/Native American/Irish descent and am aware of the place afforded to early Irish peoples in this country. I know they were enslaved like blacks (but in far fewer numbers) and that our history books ignore that fact. However, I have always felt that the various white ethnic groups who were ill-received here at first had an advantage over blacks, that being the color of their skin. I have known Irish and Italian families who ended their problems with bigotry by simply moving to a place where they were not known and changing their surnames. And even when the ethnicity is known, a white face from any background is virtually assured a better reception than a black one.
POSTED OCT. 7, 1998
Dorsey <starsi@iname.com>, Meadville, PA

FURTHER NOTICE 3:
As an Irish-American woman with an African-American partner, this is a question I’ve been batting around for years. Although I know from family stories the sufferings of the Irish people, I feel that sometimes my Irish-American friends use that past suffering as an excuse to avoid admitting our present culpability in white privilege, i.e. “our folks suffered just as much as yours, we are equal victims, so we are not racist”; or “we got over it; why can’t those black folks get over it?” I’m sure that is not your attitude, but sometimes I find myself showing less sympathy for the plight of my Irish-American brothers and sisters because in the here and now, at least in the United States, we are not an oppressed group, and looking back to our past sufferings does little to advance equality. I found Ignatiev’s How the Irish Became White very enlightening on this whole issue.
POSTED OCT. 7, 1998
L.K., 39, white <lktice@peganet.com>, Fort Myers, FL

FURTHER NOTICE 4:
As a black female I will be the first to tell you that we really don’t care. What your people endured was nowhere near the extent of what our people endured, and therefore I feel that the two cannot be compared. Also, when people look at you now, they see another white person. When they look at me, they see that I am black, and I am often discriminated against. These are things you won’t encounter because it is hard to tell the Polish from the Irish, etc. They’re all white.
POSTED OCT. 7, 1998
Taylor M., black female, U.S.

FURTHER NOTICE 4:
I don’t think Taylor should be so passive. Hate is hate. It doesn’t matter if one got it worse than another. The point is it shouldn’t happen to anybody and these things should not go unnoticed.
POSTED OCT. 14, 1998
J. Bennett, Jacksonville, FL
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THE QUESTION:
R453: Is there a way to tell the difference in Asian nationalities? I’ve heard that the slant direction of the eyes is an indicator. Is this true?
POSTED SEPT. 9, 1998
Tina, Columbia, SC

ANSWER 1:
As an Asian, I find few physical characteristics to differentiate between different nationalities. The slant of the eyes is usually irrelevant in determining nationality. I usually have to go by the total context of the situation in trying to guess an Asian’s nationality. Younger Chinese (from Hong Kong and Taiwan), Japanese and Koreans seemed to have assimiliated into the middle to upper-middle class here in the Midwest. So many times if I see a well-to-do Asian, I will narrow it down to one of those three. Filipino, Thai, Vietnamese and mainland Chinese, having immigrated here more recently, may not have the same degree of assimilation yet. I have noticed that some Filipinos, Thai and Vietnamese have darker skin, but there are exceptions. I can usually identify other Japanese, but I find Koreans and Japanese are very similar in appearance. I usually end up looking at things like behavior, the contextual situation, body language, the language they are speaking, etc., to try to make an educated guess. If I’m correct 50 percent of the time, I feel I’m doing pretty well.
POSTED SEPT. 23, 1998
Keach, 39, Japanese-American male <keachs@idt.net>, Chicago, IL

FURTHER NOTICE:
I agree with Keach. Context is totally important, but it usually holds more with Asians from Asia. As an Asian American, I find it extremely hard to distinguish the ethnicities of other Asian Americans, to the point where I don’t even bother with it.
POSTED OCT. 5, 1998
Ray, 24, Asian American <yangban@erols.com>, Washington , DC

FURTHER NOTICE 2:
I would echo the first comment about the “context,” but in a slightly different way. I think it’s easier when you are “inside” a community (i.e.: being Asian) to be able to differentiate between the various “internal” nationalities and regionalities. For example, my parents are from India, and I can often (though not always) “guess” whether a person of Indian descent is from the North or South, or perhaps from a more specific region. What’s important (at least from my perspective) is that often there isn’t a single distinguishing feature but a sort of “gestalt” whereby the totality of someone’s appearance tips off or at least suggests where they are specifically from. It’s also very important for those on the “outside” of the group to not jump to conclusions (even I’m wrong about where an Asian or Indian is from) about one’s specific origin, and certainly never have the mentality “they all look alike,” because that blends the other group into one monolithic identity rather than looking at people as individuals.
POSTED NOV. 23, 1998
Mihir, Indian, male, 25 <mishah@vt.edu>, Skokie, IL
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THE QUESTION:
R452: Being Native American, I can understand the hardships and trauma African Americans have suffered while their rights were being questioned. Many of them lost several generations to poor working conditions, disease and beatings. I often wonder: Do African Americans support Indians in their continued fight for freedom in this country? And do African Americans support Indians’ rights to sovereignty and the right to own and operate casinos for income to better their economic status?
POSTED SEPT. 9, 1998
Quincy S. 3, Luiseno female <Quincees@aol.com>, San Diego, CA

ANSWER 1:
I am an African American and totally support Indians’ rights to sovereignty over their land. This entire country was theirs, and it was stolen from them, even though they were more than willing to share it. And they have many signed (and broken) treaties to show their willingness to share this land. So for the little bit of land they now have, it should be totally theirs. They should have the ability to operate any kind of business that does not adversely affect our shared ecology. We should not be adversely affecting the shared ecology,either. They should have sovereignty, and they should be able to open or not open as many casinos as their people see fit.
POSTED SEPT. 10, 1998
S.D., 23, black American, Oakland, CA

FURTHER NOTICE:
One thing that is interesting is that libertarians, who are mostly white (hopefully this will change), are very much in favor of re-opening treaty negotiations with Native Americans and are quite willing to negotiate anything up to and including full sovereignty on Native American lands. Comedian Drew Carey, a libertarian, supports this view as well (which is somewhat ironic, since as a Cleveland Indians fan, he doesn’t have a “problem” with the offensive “Chief Wahoo” logo). My point is that there are folks (including myself) of various ethnic backgrounds who are sympathetic to the plight of Native Americans and want to do the right thing. Unfortunately, there are still far too few Americans willing to do something as “radical” or “drastic” as returning Native American lands to their rightful owners.
POSTED NOV. 23, 1998
Mihir, Indian, male, 25 <mishah@vt.edu>, Skokie, IL
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THE QUESTION:
R451: In Northern Minnesota, there seems to be quite a prejudice against Native Americans. Recently I heard an Indian refer to himself as “a drunken Indian” during a TV broadcast. He had been commenting on how he believed white people viewed him. Do other American Indians feel this way? Or do Indians actually view themselves as drunkards?
POSTED SEPT. 7, 1998
M.T., Bemidji, MN

ANSWER 1:
I’m a (brown) Afro American and used to travel to Minnesota on business. Once, I was threatened by a group of whites who mistook me for a Native American. After learning I was an Afro American from Chicago, everything was OK Also, when I was Hawaii, I noticed that many whites expressed extreme racism toward the native Hawaiian population. I relate this to confirm your suspicion of the existence of prejudice in Minnesota toward Native Americans. More importantly, I relate this because it seems to say a lot about the nature of racism in America: It appears that any group that shares space with the majority, white, population in America becomes the object of prejudice. If you travel to the South, blacks are described as lazy, drunken, etc. If there are few blacks around, then Native Americans, Hispanics, Hawaiians, Asians or (fill in the blank) become lazy, drunken, etc. Why this is is perhaps the subject of another question.
POSTED SEPT. 9, 1998
S.F., black male, <sfinley@earthlink.net>, Naperville, IL

FURTHER NOTICE:
I was raised near the Cherokee reservation in North Carolina, and I can tell you this is still a strongly held stereotype by many white people. I remember many incidents where Native Cherokees would not be hired for construction jobs in the area because “you never know when they’ll show up drunk.” Those same foremen would hire Anglos who would show up hung over, sneak in alcohol on the job, drink during lunch and brag about how drunk they got the night before. I find this funny in the extreme since “Tar-Heels” are known for their history of black-market alcohol and moonshine factories. It is my experience that Americans who are a part of a minority have to work twice as hard, be three times as proficient and four times as tolerant just to be viewed half as normal as those who wish to be hateful towards them. I’m not just talking white-on-black, white-on-Jewish or white-on-Indian hate. This behavior has extended to every culture in our country and every culture that is “different” from the discriminating person. We have learned our bigotry well.
POSTED SEPT. 9, 1998
45-year-old white lesbian, <pridewks@centraltx.net>, Kempner, TX

FURTHER NOTICE:
American Indians keep questioning why white people have taken their places and feeling bad about it. The fact is Indians can’t go back to old times. What can they do? Work hard, use the right of public speech to protect them from abuse while trying to progress, and get to know how to use modern machinery to compete in an open market. I think Indians in North America have better opportunities than the ones in South America, who aer impoverished with hunger and overwork, but it is the South American Indians who could teach lessons to them.
POSTED MARCH 23, 1999
Agustin R. <fran31@hotmail.com>, Santa Cruz, Bolivia