[F Kennedy]

Having worked with many black women and able to overhear much of what they said, I wonder, why are they so quick to label other blacks by color? I learned the words shiney, dark-skinned, light-skinned, red, yellow, high yellow, pink, nappy, dusky and ashy - and heaven help anyone with eyes other than brown! It was obvious that light-skinned, women, especially without heavy "black" features, were at the top of the pecking order, and shiney were near the bottom. Why?

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Name : F Kennedy, Gender : M, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Congregational, Age : 53, City : Ft Myers, State : FL Country : United States, Education level : 4 Years of College, Social class : Upper middle class, 

[LP]

Some black women and black people in particular have a color complex. In the past, certain well-off blacks even used what is known as the 'brown paper bag test' to exclude other blacks. For example, if you wanted into an all-black country club, you could only get in if your skin was lighter than a brown bag. A lot of black people, unlike other cultures, believe in a very Euro-centric standard of beauty. Light-skinned blacks are seen as being closer to white. It affects other cultures as well; in America in general, it seems that to be considered attractive one must only be tall, skinny, with big boobs and blond hair. It is something many blacks still judge other blacks by. Author Dorothy West wrote about this in her book The Wedding.

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Name : LP, Gender : F, Race : Black/African American, Age : 23, City : Lincoln, State : NE Country : United States, Occupation : Student, Education level : Over 4 Years of College, Social class : Middle class, 

[Lisa22739]

I've never heard of black people using the terms dusky or shiny. Maybe it's a regional thing. Anyway, many black people use those terms to give the other person an idea of what the person looks like, because we come in so many colors. You're probably right about the pecking order thing - we can't help but be pulled into the nonsense that is America

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Name : Lisa22739, Gender : F, Race : Black/African American, City : Los Angeles, State : CA Country : United States, 

[Alicia]

This can be traced back to the amount of admixture among blacks during the era of slavery, and the racial politics that ensued. Often blacks were categorized as mulatto, quadroon or octaroon, based on their known ancestry or physical appearance. Many times lighter-skinned blacks were given preferential treatment, resulting in a good deal of resentment and self-hate among the black community. Also, there are many obvious differences in the skin tones and facial features of black Americans, so in a way it's only natural to observe these differences. Much the same way Caucasians have a variety of different eye and hair colors. It's interesting to note, from my observation, that while many non-blacks tend to view blacks as a homogenous group, the various groups of black Africans tend to see themselves as distinct and different from each other. A good example of this is the situation in the Darfur region of Sudan. Many, if not most, Arab Sudanese would easily be considered to be black by American standards, but Arab Sudanese tend to see themselves as very different from black Sudanese, thus resulting in much of the atrocities there.

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[Terri24698]

The pecking order you speak of was established during slavery; and it is the difference between the house slaves and the field slaves. The house slaves, often offspring of the slave masters, were lighter in skin color. They were treated better than the field slaves because of their parentage, so it was more desirable to be a house slave for that reason. When you hear of black people who have a 'slave mentality,' that is often what you are hearing: black people who feel it is preferable to look closer to the European standard than the African one. It has created an intra-racism that is based on ignorance and continues to be fed by the preferences in the media (both black and mainstream) for women to have light skin, long hair and narrow features.

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[Kristina26255]

Historically, lighter-skinned slaves, (created from the rape of black female slaves), were treated better because: 1) they were related to the slavemasters and 2) they were closer to white. Consequently the black community developed an affinity for lighter-skinned or biracial-looking individuals. They are considered to be more attractive than someone who has browner skin. Now, how does this relate to what you have experienced at work? Well, many black women are at odds with each other because there's a shortage of available black men. So they might be intimidated by those who they feel are more attractive than them. And since lighter-skinned black women are more desired in the black community, it is natural that they become a target for cattiness and gossip among those who are darker-skinned. Conversely, darker-skinned women are the least desired so my guess is they wouldn't be bothered as much.

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[Rhonda-P-Outlaw29991]

For decades, dark-skinned black men and women with kinky hair and African features, were at the top of light-skinned blacks' 'pecking order'. But I'm going to air some dirty laundry about us: we - black people - are the most racist people when it comes to black people. Example: many black colleges and universities would not allow dark-skinned student to join their sororities; in fact; many schools, as well as so-called 'elite' clubs and organizations, had what was called a 'paperbag' test. Any African American darker than a brown paper bag was not accepted in those schools and clubs. And the intra-racism goes on today. Howard University is currently telling black women that to be a member of their cheerleading and dance squads, that they must have 'straight' hair. Natural hair is unacceptable.

So now you know our dirty little secret. Black people are still hung up on skin color and hair. Black women would rather ruin their hair with chemicals than have a healthy, beautiful head full of natural hair. Black women in this country, and abroad, ruin their skin with bleaching cream. White folks started this mess; black people took it and ran with it, and are still running with it.

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[Wayne24382]

Wow! Rhonda, I didn't know about the Howard U thing and am really surprised. Guess I shouldn't be. I'm glad there is someone like you on that comes to Yforum -- helps keep me up on what's going on in the real world.

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[Jack21193]

Who doesn't describe each other and themselves by variations and nuances of hair color, eye color, body shape, face shape, smile type, and on and on? Everyone culture does. As a white man in America, this includes many variations of white: olive, tan, dark, brown, rose, light, pale, and every variation in-between. It's interesting to hear about dark blacks feeling there is bias against them, because I'm 'pale white', should I consider people as racially biased against me because I'm 'too white' for other whites tastes? I suppose I could, but I submit to all of you that people are judged more by whether they are outgoing/friendly/helpful as compared to those who keep to themselves and don't join in. Sign me 'Pale White Man' :)

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[KofiM]

This is a ridiculous question! And those responses are just as ridiculous. How is it that a white, 'upper middle class', male does not know what the answer is?

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Name : KofiM, City : Jersey City, State : NJ Country : United States, 

[Bernadette]

This is just a comment, not any sort of explanation. As an artist I've got plenty of names for skin color and spend hours studying the wondrous variations, mixing my pastels and watercolors or challenging my pencils and charcoal to express the tones, comparing people to fruits and vegetables, rocks and clouds...without judgement. If we all looked the same I'd be bored silly and where would be the challenge? I'd like to think that everyone saw things this way, but I knew even as I read the question what the real answer was. I can only hope that my simple honest expression of visual inspiration will help others to see that we are all beautiful, and that differences among us are necessary and good. Of course, I'm white and can never know the burden of judgement beyond my own control.

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[Clark Morgan McDonald]

This didn't just happen all by itself, it was a published plan of action to keep slaves from revolting: Willie Lynch, a West Indian slave holder, is reputed to have told American slave holders the following in 1712: 'I am here to help you solve some of your problems with slaves. Your invitation reached me on my modest plantation in the West Indies where I have experimented with some of the new- est and still the oldest methods of control of slaves.' and-- 'I am not here to enu- merate your problems, I am here to introduce you to a method of solving them. In my bag here, I have a fool proof method for controlling your black slaves. I guarantee everyone of you that, if installed correctly, it will control the slaves for at least 300 hundred years. My method is simple. Any member of your family or your overseer can use it. I have outlined a number of differences among the slaves: and I take these differ- ences and make them bigger. I use fear, distrust, and envy for control purposes. These methods have worked on my modest plantation in the West Indies and it will work throughout the South. Take this simple little list of differences, and think about them. On top of my list is "Age," but it is there only because it starts with an "A," the second is ''color' or shade, there is intelligence, size, sex, size of plantations, status on plantation, attitude of owners, whether the slaves live in the valley, on the hill,East, West, North, South, have fine hair, coarse hair, or are tall or short. Now that you have a list of differences. I shall give you an outline of action — but before that I shall assure you that distrust is stronger than trust and envy is stronger than adulation, respect, or admiration.' 'The black slave after receiving this indoctrination shall carry on and will become self re-fueling and self generating for hundreds of years, maybe thousands. ' source and more info: http://hierographics.org/yourhistoryonline/yourhistoryonlineIII.htm

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[mota]

I don't think like many who responded to this question that it's related to slaverie. I West Africa and Specialy in my country were we are all black, light-skinned women are the dream of all men.They are the ones to look for, the one we think are the bestfor the eyes, the heart, the ones to bring to home and make mom proud and the friends jealous. i don't know why lot of white men like blonde either!!

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[Megan Brown]

The brown paper bag was a way of seeing if a black person was light enough or too dark. White people and black people would hold up the paper bag to a black persons face. Also with clothes, skin color types go through fads. Sometimes dark is in and high-yellow is out and vice versa.

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[Quentin]

Skin color comes under intense focus in the US for good reason, but we here tend to overlook that the problem is universal. Back in one of my college classes (Western Hemisphere Slavery) I came across information that the Chinese and Japanese dealt with the problem, if that is the way to put it. They, too, idealized and distinguished between color shades of skin, the lighter shades being preferable in social standing.

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