Dare To Ask Talk And News About Our Differences - This topic has 52 replies, 52 voices, and was last updated 20 years ago by
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In response to the first response (Mesg ID 116200484144). I find his/her logic, comparing a homosexual person to an alcoholic, flawed which validates the question of fear. They are two quite different things, one is an addiction and therefore a disease, the other is not. How many people would say that driving a car is the same thing or even in the same ballpark as matrimony and all the work that goes into one. What are the dangers created by two people sharing a life that are analogous to a drunk driver? What is even the similarity between a gay driver and a drunk one? Homosexuals don’t CHOOSE to be gay anymore than heterosexuals choose to be straight, simply you either are or you are not. Rights or laws are constantly revised to fit an evolving society. And homosexuals are not asking for any special rights, they are asking to be included into the ones everyone else enjoys.
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Name : A.R., Gender : M, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : Hispanic/Latino (may be any race), Religion : Atheist, City : New York, State : NY, Country : United States, Education level : 4 Years of College, Social class : Middle class,I have struggled to understand why society has any place deciding whom can marry whom. I think that basically we are still operating under an outdated judeo-christian paradigm (at least we don’t have dowrys anymore…or do we?) I think that at some point in human societal evolution it was very important to the survival of a village that many strong backs be born; therefore marriage between man and woman would be encouraged if not required. I mean- we all know everyone would go gay if given a choice ;). We do not have that same need now. In fact, the world is facing the exponentially increasing problem of overpopulation. People tout ‘family values’ to justify a violation of the basic civil rights of gay persons but at the core of the argument this is not about family values. This is about religion rearing its blind head in what should be a secular society. Homosexuality is seen in almost every phyla known to science; in fact, some behavioral scientists are starting to think that homosexuality is GOOD (in a survival sense) for societies. It means we have more mother’s helpers running around. They say love is blind. If a gay couple want to enjoy all of the same responsibilities and freedoms as heterosexuals, why not? Rather than using vaginal conception to acquire their children they could serve in a much needed social function by adopting all the kids those heterosexuals abandoneed!
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Name : Holly, Gender : F, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Agnostic, Age : 24, City : Durham, State : NC, Country : United States, Occupation : student/woodworker, Education level : 2 Years of College, Social class : Lower class,CeCe and Renee? by the stars! At first I thought you were joking. Then I realized that in all probability you are deadly serious. I have rarely read such poorly substantiated and ill-reasoned drivel!! I am particularly saddened by CeCe?s response how could a black woman with her historical and cultural background ever oppose granting harmless and justified liberties to another minority group?? Such gross exaggerations! : ?Gay guys who just had hundreds of partners a night.? Ridiculous! It boggles the mind. I come from the Netherlands and here (as in quite a few other European countries) same sex marriages have been an accepted institute for some years. And, no?. this isn?t Sodom and Gomorra, no we don?t have more or worse problems in our society than in yours because of these marriages, no we don?t have too few children. Our society has not and never will crumble at the seems because of gay marriages. I can?t believe Americans actually spend energy and time opposing these marriages rather than focusing on the many problems that are truly ripping your country asunder such as guns, drugs, crooked politicians and hate. The whole ?children? argument is completely moot and flawed from head to tail anyhow: A. It is statistically shown and recognized that about 1 in 10 people are gay. So even if all the gays in America married this still wouldn?t mean there would be too few children. All the other couples would be more than sufficient to produce children. B. Whether they marry or not, Gay people are GAY! They are not going to reproduce regardless of the fact that you seem to think it is okay to deny them what should be a fundamental right On a side note and just in case you have been asleep for the last 30 years, overpopulation is becoming a serious problem for this planet we share. As things stand it wouldn?t be a bad thing at all if people everywhere (especially Americans that consume more resources and pollute more than anyone else) would have fewer children. If people like you and your values are at all representative of America it is small wonder that many countries and people greatly dislike America. And no i am not a muslim/terrorist/commy/whatever.
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Name : Luke22481, City : Rotterdam, State : NA, Country : Netherlands,i find the comparison between homosexuals and alcoholics intriguing…and highly offensive. this type of moralistic logic is a perfect illustration of the fear-based judgements debbie referenced in her original post. i would be fascinated to hear a breakdown of exactly how alcoholism and homosexuality are equally dangerous to society, from someone who believes that to be true.
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Name : omphale, Gender : F, Sexual Orientation : Bisexual, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Agnostic, Age : 29, City : Minneapolis, State : MN, Country : United States, Occupation : writer, musician, mother, Education level : 2 Years of College, Social class : Lower class,Fear of the self. The people most opposed to gay marriage are afraid that they might be gay. They are afraid to admit that they might harbor feelings for someone of the same sex. Anyone who is open about those feelings represents a threat to their self image and way of life. ———————————————– (Studies have shown that homophobic ‘strait’ men are more aroused by gay pornography than their non-homophobic brethren.) ————————————————- Gay marriage threatens currently existing marriages in the same way that interracial marriage threatened existing marriages in the 1950’s. The objection to gay marriage is really an objection to people being homosexual in the first place, not the actual marriage. ————————————————- If people were really concerned with the sanctity of marriage, they would attempt to dismantle the no-fault divorce laws found in this country. The divorce rate would plumet. ————————————————- Beyond the simple fear of being gay, there is the feeling that if gay marriage were permitted, it would further legitimise something that these people see as utterly disgusting. That combined with the fact that gay people are ‘stealth’ in that they are not identified unless they identify themselves, makes people (primarily men) afraid that either they will catch ‘the gay’ or their children will. ————————————————- Finally, a note on demographics. At present time, the US stands against gay marriage. I think this will stay true until the baby boomers (my parents generation) begin to die off. People my age and younger, on the whole find no problem with the concept of gay marriage, after seeing what has become of the institution either because of what celebreties have done, or because of the large number of divorces we have seen with friend’s parents. ————————————————– I hope that, like prohibition, this will be resolved in a generation or so. ————————————————– I had a final section about open homosexuals in history (a couple of English Kings, a Chinese Emporer, Socrates, etc.) but I had to cut it for space. It was a reply to the person who said that nobody was out until the 1970’s.
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Name : Jason, Gender : M, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Quaker, Age : 22, City : Portland, State : OR, Country : United States, Occupation : Student, Education level : 4 Years of College, Social class : Middle class,Fear can be categorised as either being rational, or irrational. Rational fear is when you’re scared of something you know to be dangerous – e.g. fire, drowning, bullets being fired at you. Irrational fear is when you think something is dangerous, but in fact it isn’t. Such fear typically occurs because something isn’t understood but there is a perception it could be damging. The human mind creates a feedback loop, and before you know it, everything and everyone can become the enemy. Gay marriages are seen as the encroachment of the homosexual community into an institution (marriage) that is historically a used to partner a mother and a father and defining a family. Some people just don’t understand why you would get married if it was not to start a family. Some people think it defaces a tradition they hold dear. Some, just don’t understand homosexuality full stop, and so irrational fear becomes the dominant force in their thinking.
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Name : Wiggy, Gender : M, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : White/Caucasian, Age : 25, City : Manchester, State : NA, Country : United Kingdom, Education level : 4 Years of College, Social class : Middle class,To compare alcoholism to homosexuality is a bad analogy. Alcoholism is harmful to the alcoholic, his or her family and the community in general. Should we arrest and prosecute people for ‘driving while gay’? Homosexuality IS NOT a choice of life style. It is as much a part of a person as the color of their eyes or skin. How do you suppose it feels/felt for African-Americans to have to de-emphasize their culture in order to ‘get along’ in a mostly-caucasian society? Homosexuality IS NOT a disease, requiring a ‘cure’. What, exactly, is it that so terrifies and repels folks who oppose gay marriage? Homosexuality IS NOT contagious! Your children and grandchildren will not be influenced into becoming gay. The only influence that gay marriage will have on future generations will be to teach them to accept diversity.
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Name : Bill, Gender : M, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : White/Caucasian, Age : 52, City : SAN JOSE, State : CA, Country : United States, Occupation : engineer, Education level : 2 Years of College, Social class : Middle class,My belief on homosexuality is that it is unnatural and wrong. however, i’m not a ‘GOD HATES FAGS’ fanatic. i don’t feel that its any MORE wrong than adultry, or theft. i even have a few gay friends. God doesn’t hate fags, he loves the person. but he does hate sin, and in His eyes, homosexuality is just as disgusting as theft or lying. all that aside though, homosexuality is a choice, just like any other activity, and i don’t feel that people should be mistreated because of it. however, the family structure is a sacred foundation for society. it is natural to be attracted to the opposite sex because its necessary for reproduction. allowing gay relationships is their friggin business, but allowing gay marriages is an attack on the natural structure of marriage. if a gay couple wants to be married, let them have a ceremony and they can call themselves what they want. but why do they need a legal paper that gives them the same rights and priviledges that encourage straight couples to marry. why is it that people want to chose a different lifestyle but still want to be the same as everyone else?
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Name : Rajah, Gender : M, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Christian, Age : 22, City : Watertown, State : WI, Country : United States, Occupation : student/health services, Education level : 4 Years of College, Social class : Middle class,I’ve got a lot of gay (American) friends here in Amsterdam (I’m American as well), and there seem to be two main issues. First is civil rights – things like inheritance and other ‘next of kin’ issues. Second is general social acceptance (which I don’t think you can really legislate). And don’t get me started on this defense of marriage crap. I thought the *democrats* were the ones who were supposed to be sticking the government’s nose in our private business and spending lots of wated money on social programs…sheesh. Pretty obvious pandering there, if you ask me. My solution would be to get the government completely out of the marriage business – heck, in a way it’s a separation of church and state. Make everything a civil union, such that two people who commit to each other have their civil rights, and forget about the social validation part of it. Heck, I might do that with my ex-girlfriend – we found out she was pregnant after we broke up, so we’ve got a kind of a partnership going on. And why not allow polygamy or polygyny? As long as everyone’s old enough to make an informed moral choice for themselves that doesn’t come at an economic cost to society, what business is it of yours? As long as there’s a commitment and an implied legal responsibility between anyone in a civil union, I’m all for it. And to the person who said he knows straight kids of gay parents, therefore it’s not genetic: good lord, go by a biology textbook (preferably not in Kentucky). Inherited traits are a lot more complex than that – and in fact, we’re still learning a lot about how factors other than nuclear DNA influence inherited characteristics (cf Scientific American from a few months ago). Interestingly as well, science is now telling us that there’s pretty much zero genetic basis to what most people refer to as ‘race’. It’s almost entirely a social construct (heck, it took me a couple of years to realise that heere in Europe, people include South Asians (Indian) as ‘black’).
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Name : dersk, Gender : M, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Atheist, Age : 34, City : amsterdam, State : NA, Country : The Netherlands, Education level : Over 4 Years of College,Whether you are driven by fear or anger or simply righteousness, gay people are threatened by your comments. We are not drunks, and our behavior is not inappropriate to us. It may well be inappropriate to you, however, we live in a free society where you do not have the right to curtail my freedoms simply because you are offended by my actions. I have values, I have a family, and my children are well taken care of, so you needn’t worry about their long-term health. In fact, my children will grow up without the vitriolic us-vs.-them philosophy you have, and I daresay they will be all the healthier for it.
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Name : James D., Gender : M, Sexual Orientation : Gay, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Atheist, Age : 47, City : Summit, State : NJ, Country : United States, Education level : 4 Years of College,You seem to be making several false assumptions and comparisons here. Firstly, people do not ‘choose’ to be gay. Many gay people suffer huge distress and misery coming to terms with their sexuality (largely as a result of society’s failure to accept them). Historically, homosexual men have faced disgrace,social ostracism and criminal prosecution (even execution), yet there have always been gay people. Do you honestly imagine anyone wakes up and says to themselves, ‘I know, I’m just not getting enough abuse and discrimination, I’ll choose to be gay’? Comparing homsexuality with use of alcohol is equally invalid. Sexuality is not something you chose, any more than skin color or gender is. Try putting ‘black’ where you have ‘homosexual’ and see if your comments still seem ‘reasoned’. Finally, since when has marriage been solely about raising kids? By your reasoning, no post-menopausal women, infertile men or women, those who have had vasectomies or people who don’t want children should be allowed to marry.
If you object to gay couples marrying in church, then you don’t have to attend the service. Other than that, it’s none of your business. There is no reason gay and lesbian couples should not enter into a legally recognized relationship so they can demonstrate their commitment to one another and preserve and inherit property, and be recognized as next of kin, just like any other loving and committed couple. Don’t mistake your own prejudices for absolute right or wrong.
By the way, a drunk driver is liable to harm himself and others. I never heard of anyone being fatally injured by two strangers registering their marriage.
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Name : Margo, Gender : F, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Agnostic, Age : 30, City : Trowbridge, State : NA, Country : United Kingdom, Occupation : lawyer, Education level : 4 Years of College, Social class : Upper middle class,The thread of the postings that are opposed to gay marriage all seem to take the same general tack: that homosexuality is wrong and therefore not to be encouraged. This equating of [im]morality with [il]legality is the basis for the vast majority of the civil rights abuses that have faced our country in its history. Despite the deist proclamations on our currency, in our Pledge of Allegiance, and other token nods to religion in our country’s ceremonies, there IS a separation of church and state here. Ideally, our laws are based on nothing more than what best serves society….NOT on what we believe is moral, no matter what ourt morals are based on. I am straight and married. I was raised a Lutheran, believing that homosexuality was a sin. But this does not mean I should force my beliefs on others, by law or any other means. One last note: I’ve heard several arguments that say that (at least here in California) gay people already have the ability to form a Domestic Partnership, which is essentially the same as marriage. To that, I say: didn’t ‘separate but equal’ go out the window with Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka?
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Name : Sean, Gender : M, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Atheist, Age : 33, City : Orange County, State : CA, Country : United States, Occupation : School bus driver, Education level : Over 4 Years of College, Social class : Middle class,Thanks for giving us the right to marry someone we don’t want to. You can apply what you just said to interracial marriages – when black people couldn’t marry white people, they had the right to marry black people just like everyone else! It’s a fallacy, Cece. We’re fighting to give you the right to marry someone of your gender, also, even though you might not want to. Please do not compare who I choose to have emotional relationships with to alcoholism. Women are not addictive drugs.
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Name : Karen, Gender : F, Sexual Orientation : Lesbian, Race : Hispanic/Latino (may be any race), Religion : Atheist, Age : 22, City : Bethesda, State : MD, Country : United States, Occupation : Consultant, Education level : 4 Years of College, Social class : Middle class,Actually values can be and all too often are entirely fear-based. Yes, I would most certainly say that many people are ‘scared’ of alcoholics for the very reasons you stated. Many peoples’ values are based on fear, misconception, stereotypes and ignorance. To name a few: Blacks and Hispanics are lazy and slothful, Asians are technical whizzes, Jews are astute businessmen, Italians are surly louts … you get the idea. And to equate sexual orientation with alcoholism? The only commonality alcoholism and sexual orientation share is that neither is a conscious choice. And the comparison ends there.
No one chooses to be an alcoholic; it is a disease, pure and simple. It is a condition, quite deadly, which requires treatment on medical and psychological levels. The activities of an alcoholic affect others around them and society in general, physically, socially and mentally. Current legislation is aimed at those symptoms that adversely affect society and cause harm to others. Sexual orientation, on the other hand, harms no one. It is NOT a disease. No, AIDS is not ‘Gay Cancer’.
More to your point… You state that’ Individuals who choose to engage in same-gender sex should not be granted special rights…’. They aren’t asking for special rights. They’re asking to be afforded the same consideration that any heterosexual couple in a loving relationship gets. It ain’t about the sex, it’s about love.
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Name : Prairieson, Gender : M, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : White/Caucasian, Age : 48, City : Toledo, State : OH, Country : United States, Occupation : Engineer, Social class : Middle class,
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