[Franchesca]

I am Italian-American. I find it weird how everybody I have ever met who is Irish has a problem with me. I also know many Italians who have a problem with Irish people. Does anyone know how this hatred came to be? I have heard a lot of stories, but many of them are just blaming the problem on the other culture.

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Name : Franchesca, Gender : F, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : Italian-American, Religion : Catholic, Age : 18, City : Philadelphia, State : PA, Country : United States, Occupation : Student, Education level : Less than High School Diploma, Social class : Lower middle class, 

[KN26936]

One theory that I’ve heard is that animosity developed during the immigration rushes of last century, primarily over resources. Both groups were competing for the same jobs, living spaces, etc. Also, both groups were scorned by ‘mainstream’ WASP-y society, and as often happens with marginialized groups, each sought to distinguish themselves and prove that they were better than the other group. That animosity probably continues, at least in part, today.

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[Nathan20145]

I thought that Italian-Americans pretty much hate everybody. On the VH1 show that documented the making of ‘Saturdy Night Fever’ the director said that the extras in Bensohurst refused to cheer for the black dance couple. The movie was supposed to be mainly about Tony maturing and finding out that the whole insulated life he’d lead was holding him down.

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[Jay31336]

They don’t like the English either. Why I don’t know.

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[Cara]

That’s a very astute observation. I’m originally from Philadelphia and I’m of Italian decent. I also make a living playing and teaching Irish traditional music, which means I’m constantly in the company of Irish people or people of Irish decent. I’ve never heard any derrogatory comments from my Irish friends regarding my Italian background, nor have I encountered any problems with my Italian family regarding my musical interests. The only reason that I could think of for any dissent between Italians and Irish may result from the times of peak immigration from the two countries, around the turn of the century (1900’s), when people were competing for jobs and living quarters. If anyone else has any ideas or experiences, I’d really be interested in knowing.

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[Greg21560]

Hi, I’m Italian-American too. I read a lot of Italian-American literature and publications. From what I read, a lot of this animosity goes back to when Italians arrived. Italians were moving into the neighborhoods Irish (the earlier immigrants)lived in. This caused a lot of hostility, much like when African-Americans moved into Italian-American neighborhoods not that long ago. Also, a lot of the Irish-Italian conflict has to do with religion. The Irish were very ‘orthodox’ in their Catholocism, while the Italians placed a lot of emphasis on saints rather than God. He was seen as ‘too distant,’ so the Italian immigrants would work through the more ‘accesable saints.’ Sometimes, if their prayers weren’t answered, they’d curse at their saints, stop worshipping them, and pick others. There were also elements of southern Italian paganism in their beleifs. All this, of course shocked the Irish. The Irish were in charge, for the most part, of the Catholic institutions, and they saw Italians moving into the ranks with their beleifs as a threat. Of course, this was during the early days of ItalianImmigration, but a lot of the animosity carried. I don’t think it’s as big now-though this view might vary from person to person. Interestingly, much of this animosity was erased with intermarriage between the two groups. Italians and Irish lived side to side in neighborhoods as well. My father was from such a neighborhood in the Bronx.

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[foo9999]

Well, I’m half Irish, half Italian, so I’m thinking there couldn’t be that much hate. 🙂 Generally when you get a little group of humans together, rivalries will develop between other groups. The whole us-aginst-them attitude.

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[Brenda19420]

I’m Italian-American and have many Irish friends. I’m not saying that you don’t have the problems you described however. I think in many areas, such as New York City, or Philadelphia, where you’re from, large immigrant populations settled there in the 30s and 40s. First, the Irish, who were treated horribly. Then, came the Italians, who were considered even lower than the Irish. Every ethnic group had their own neighborhood (that’s how we get Little Italy and Chinatown in big cities), and pretty much either did not go to the ‘other’ neighborhoods or had a rivalry with them. I think this rivalry has continued in some cities unfortunately. Hopefully as time passes, future generations will see the futility of keeping it going.

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[Becky]

I have never heard of such a thing! I am very Irish and my husband (whom I do not get along with all the time but love very much) is very Italian! Hating someone because of their race, religion, or their ethnic background makes no sense to me at all and is a waste of time! I think people hate because we fear what we do not know or understand. When it comes down to it we are basically all the same.

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[Erin]

I’m an American of Irish descent and was totally blown away by your posting. I’ve never heard of this before! My mother is from Belleville N.J., which had a very high mix of Irish and Italians, though I don’t know if it still does because she moved 22 years ago. Mom dated a couple of Italian guys in her high school and there were always Italian men trying to set such a ‘nice little Catholic girl’ up with their grandsons. My three dearest friends are Italian-Americans and we get along great. In fact, one gal’s other best friend is also Irish. We’ve commented on numerous occasions that there are many similarities between the two groups, and when we go to the other’s family functions, there are never any problems. Aside from my being deathly pale and her being fairly dark, she swears I am her long-lost cousin! Maybe it has to do with World Cup Soccer rivalry?

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[Colleen]

When I asked the same question I was told it’s because the Irish and the Italians were competing for the same low paying jobs when they immigrated to the USA. My great, great grandfather was born Italian, but somehow ended up with an Irish name. It was a huge family joke – because at the time the two groups really hated each other – they were both fighting for their survival. Also, they were both considered ‘black’ because they had darker skin than other europeans – that’s what my genealogical research and family experience has turned up.

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[Dave26003]

I too was blown away by this question. I happen to be an Irish/Italian in the New York area. My parents immigrated to the United States (coincidentally, they met in Philly and then moved to NY). When I was a child of maybe 8 or 9, when kids would ask each other ‘What are you?’ no one ever answered ‘American.’ Many kids said ‘ half Irish and half Italian’. So because we identify with those who are like us, I have been noticing that combination my entire life. And there are a lot of us. In the past 10 years or so, I’ve noticed at both Irish and Italian festivals, the increasing presence of upbeat T-shirts that bear sayings like: ‘Pasta and Potatoes’ or ‘Pesto and Potatoes,’ or my favorite; ‘Gaelic and Garlic,’ among a few others. These shirts suggest that the union of the two is pretty common, at least in the New York area. In fact, to directly counter the suggestion that the two cultures are at odds with one another, I would submit to you this: both the Irish and the Italians came to this country with the same stigma. They were the ‘dirty lower class,’ looking for work, either couldn’t speak English, or not American English, and therefore not understood. The general populous of naturalized Americans frowned on them much the same way Americans treat the Hispanic and Asian immigrants today. The Italians (WOPS) and the Irish (MICKS or MCs) were the Wetbacks of their time, relegated to the menial jobs that were made available to them, if at all (i.e.. ‘Irish need not apply’). So in dealing with the prejudices of their time, in some cases they banded together and started families. This is not say there is some sort of coalition of the Italians and Irish, and they are dancing together in the street. However, I haven’t seen any stone throwing either, at least not in New York.

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[Dersk25701]

First of all, it’s not that Italians and Irish people dislike each other. It’s that Americans of those heritages dislike each other. I have several Irish buddies who regularly make fun of Americans who identify themselves as ‘Irish’ because someone four generations back came over from Kerry. Of course, I moved to Holland and do the same thing, even though my ancestors went to the New World in the 17th century! I guess in a nation of immigrants, we’re all looking for roots. Anyway, I think a lot of it has to do with the various waves of immigration, especially around the turn of the last century (i.e. 1900) – you’d get a lot of immigrants competing for the same jobs, and a lot of pretty horrific racism. ‘No Irish need apply’ was a fairly standard addendum to help wanted ads back then, and I can only assume it came out of competition. This could also explain why we Americans ended up with ‘Polack’ jokes (here in Holland, they tell the same jokes about the Belgians; in the UK, it’s the Irish).

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[Ed]

I think this might be because first-generation Italian and Irish immigrants to the United States were commonly hated by the rest of the population during the 1800s and early 1900s. During this time, members of one group picked up the nasty stories of the other and passed them to their children, children’s children, and so on. You live in a part of the United States where a lot of this sort of thing went on.

At least this makes sense for this country. I haven’t heard of this sort of thing happening outside the United States. If it does, the following theory might work: The Irish and Italians are still bitter over the conquest of Gaul. According to the stories, Julius Caesar sent an emmisary to a Gaelic (Celtic) chieftain. For whatever reason, the chieftain killed the emmisary. In a rage, Julius ordered that all Gaelic men be slaughtered and the women and children be sold into slavery. This action decimated the Celtic people and only the ones in Ireland and tiny isolated parts of mainland Europe remained. So the Irish are still upset over the genocide and the Italians are upset over the barbaric actions of some chief. Please note, I have absolutely no evidence of this. I came up with it after reading some ‘Asterix and Obelix’ comics. Me, I have both Irish and Italian blood. Nobody around here seems to care, except when I express a fondness for pickled tongue.

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[Kevin B.]

I think a lot of the animosity arose in New York ghettos during perods of intense emigration of and, subsequently, intense competition between these and other ethnic groups. Asian, Puerto Rican and now Vietnamese all face similar conflicts and prejudice. The movie ‘Gangs of New York’ provides some interesting insight, especially in the DVD extras. Keep in mind that most competition is survival-oriented and, as such, expressed sexually for purposes of perpetuating one’s tribe. Moving beyond tribal/ethnic mores requires great courage, which most of us lack. As we get older, this sometimes gets stronger; other times it has less hold on us.

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