Dare To Ask Talk And News About Our Differences - This topic has 25 replies, 26 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 10 months ago by
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- I was recently sitting in a crowded subway car. At the next station, a young woman entered the car, stood in front of me and started to talk to another young woman standing next to me in a voice loud enough to be easily heard (and I assume directed at me). She talked about chivalry being dead, how she rarely encounters men giving up their seat for her on a subway car and how women's lib has spoiled everything. This has happened twice in the past two weeks. I'm happy to give my seat up for an elderly man or woman, a disabled person or an obviously pregnant woman. I don't understand why women still expect men to accommodate them simply because of their gender. How do others feel about this?
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Name : Roger D., Gender : M, Sexual Orientation : Gay, Race : White/Caucasian, Age : 48, City : New York, State : NY Country : United States, Occupation : Self Employed, Education level : Over 4 Years of College,Yes, chivalry is dead, because either a woman likes a man or not. You cannot make anyone fall in love with you. You can only love yourself. I know this because I've tried chivalry and it doesn't work. Also, if you use chivalry and it does work (not because of itself but because the woman likes you anyway) then she will expect it. Forever. I've seen so many bad guys get women, that I feel as if women are masochists. But also, I believe that women get off on the challenge of converting a bad guy to be good. Women are not interested in the final product achieved, just getting off on the conversion. But because women can't handle a man who will talk about gender roles, I see no hope to this problem.User Detail :
Name : Taylor, Gender : M, Disability : I care too much., Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Synchronicity, Age : 30, City : Toronto, State : NA Country : Canada, Occupation : Teacher, Education level : 4 Years of College, Social class : Middle class,Just like Roger, I have often been bewildered by such comments concerning chivalry. I personally have a problem with the issue because on the one side, you have women complaining about chivalry being dead - they want guys to open doors for them, offer them seats, etc. But on the other hand, the same women are also clamoring for 'equality.' You can't ask for equality yet still want to be treated special. It's like having your cake and eating it too. You have to choose one or the other. In any case, I personally find chivalry to be an outdated model. Chivalry was primarily used in the days when women did not have the same rights as men and, in many cases, were treated as no more than servants or possessions (I'll save the whole 'women placed on a pedastal' thing for a different discussion). So...to conclude, I do indeed hold doors open and offer seats on occasion. But usually it depends on whether or not I'm in a good mood and/or whether or not I feel like being particularly nice. I sometimes help out because it's the polite and proper thing to do but I do it regardless of gender, etc. And whenever I encounter a woman who *expects* me to open the door for her *just* because she's female, I am more than happy to laugh at her and slam the door in her face. =)User Detail :
Name : Eric, Gender : M, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Religion : Independent, Age : 19, City : Chicago, State : IL Country : United States, Occupation : Student, Social class : Upper middle class,Chivalry is alive and well. It just depends on how boys are brought up. Children of immigrants tend to be more old-fashioned, and they would gladly open doors for girls, allow them to go ahead of them, etc. We women tend to like this, as it shows that we are still being catered to and that women's lib hasn't 'ruined' anything. Maybe we're living in a dream world, but deep inside, many of us would love it if we didn't have to work and could just marry a rich guy and have him take care of us, and live happily ever after.User Detail :
Name : CC19151, Gender : F, Race : Asian, Age : 22, City : Somewhere, State : NA Country : Canada, Social class : Upper middle class,Those women sounded very strange and rare... You sound like a nice guy willing to do something nice for the people who might need it as you listed. I would never get on a crowded bus, train etc and expect someone to give me their seat just because I'm female. It's rude, outdated and silly. And if they really think women's lib has spoiled everything, I guess they don't want the right or freedom to vote, work outside the home, go out unaccompanied, drink in pubs and bars, not get married, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. (Ok so voting's a suffragettes issue but they were feminists before Greer.) Don't worry about it Roger...in my experience the vast, vast majority of women are not like the strange two you wrote of!User Detail :
Name : Netta, Gender : F, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Agnostic, Age : 18, City : Armidale, State : NA Country : Australia, Occupation : Student, Education level : High School Diploma, Social class : Middle class,I think I'm in a small minority on this, but I agree with you. I don't like it when men make polite gestures like holding open car doors or removing coats - as though I'm some sort of delicate flower or incompetent idiot. I don't enjoy any kind of 'politeness' that's gender-based or merely proper social form. When men do stuff like that, I say thank you, but I'm really not comfortable with it. I think it may be an age thing. We're about the same age and were probably influenced by the strong gender egalitarian mores of the '60s and '70s. unfortunately for us, those standards have died, and younger people seem to have moved back to empty forms and rituals.User Detail :
Name : Amber-T, Gender : F, City : New York, State : NY Country : United States,Women's attitudes about chivalry and equality can be funny things. On the one hand, women in general want to be treated as equals. We want the same career opportunities as men and to be paid the same for the same job. We also want to be able to make our own choices and be in control of our own lives. On the other hand, many women also don't want to give up the deferential treatment that chivalry requires - the opening of doors, giving up of seats, etc. In my opinion, if we are all going to be equal, why should men still be required to fall all over themselves to be chivalrous? I mean, if a man and woman are walking together, the man shouldn't open the door, go through and let it close in the woman's face, but the woman shouldn't just stand there in front of the closed door and automatically expect the man to open it for her, unless she's carrying a bunch of stuff. People should be polite and courteous to each other.User Detail :
Name : Lucy22465, Gender : F, Race : Hispanic/Latino (may be any race), Age : 26, City : San Jose, State : CA Country : United States, Occupation : Engineer, Education level : 4 Years of College, Social class : Middle class,As a female - I neither expect nor desire a man to give up his seat to me - I am perfectly capable of standing. I also do not expect a door to be held for me or a chair to be pulled out. I have two arms and two legs and am more than able to open a door for myself. I will hold a door for anyone coming in behind me and would expect the same courtesy regardless of my gender or that of the other person. I think the whole gender issue is way out of control - one's gender is irrelavant to any issue as far as I am concerned.User Detail :
Name : Denise, Gender : F, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Religion : Atheist, Age : 28, City : London Ontario, State : NA Country : Canada, Occupation : don't work, Education level : Over 4 Years of College, Social class : Upper class,That should be 'some women expect...,' not all. Plus, it wasn't women who invented chivalry - it was men who were trying to compensate in a token way for the fact that women had so few rights. I think we can do without chivalry. Having said that, I want to take this opportunity to send a message to all those evil people who only have to go 2 to 3 stations on long-distance trains (to places like Cronulla) but take the seats of people who have to sit there for an hour, morning and night, day in, day out. You know who you are - have some consideration - stop it!User Detail :
Name : Petra, Gender : F, Age : 24, City : Sydney, State : NA Country : Australia,I find that many elderly men and men from the South still have fine manners. (I live in the Midwest, where very few men still act like gentlemen.) I like it when men open doors for me, etc. - I think it's very gallant and shows a proper upbringing. I don't feel I'm being discriminated against: Everyone knows I can open a door by myself.I also think it makes the guy feel very good about himself; I know my boyfriend really gets a kick out of doing stuff like that for me. My friends completely swoon over it, too, probably because it's so unusual nowadays.
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Name : Alexis, Gender : F, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Catholic, Age : 25, City : Lansing, State : MI Country : United States, Occupation : Journalist, Education level : 4 Years of College, Social class : Middle class,Not all women feel that way. In fact, many do not and the fact that you attempt to treat women equally in that respect is applaudable. This woman has probably led a fairly sheltered life where she does not understand the importance of gender equality. Pay no creedence to her remarks. It bothers me when women do not understand that what they call 'women's lib' is actually a structure in the process of being built to protect women from the discrimination that has haunted us for such a very long time. Please, understand, this woman needs a lesson in the women who gave their souls and lives to the cause and those who continue to do so.User Detail :
Name : Kimberly Saks, Gender : F, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Christian, Age : 19, City : Ypsilanti, State : MI Country : United States, Occupation : Student/Activist, Education level : 2 Years of College, Social class : Middle class,C.C, you shouldn't really assume that your outdated and saddening desire to be some rich guy's kept woman is shared by 'we women' because it is absolutely not desired by me or any woman I know! I don't want to be catered to because of my gender - another reply said something sensible like 'everyone should be courteous to each other' - regardless of gender. And to the original poster - the two women you mentioned seem very strange indeed... I think you should continue the way you are (happy to give up your seat for the elderly or 'an obviously pregnant woman'} - it sounds fair to me. Giving your seat to a pregnant woman is fine as it's because of her condition, not her gender. PS About the actual 'is chivalry dead?' question... I think it's on the way out. But what is it supposed to be really? Is it just men opening doors for women? Or can the meaning be changed to being polite and courteous to everyone? What do other people think?User Detail :
Name : Kate26623, Gender : F, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : White/Caucasian, Age : 19, City : Lismore, State : NA Country : Australia, Occupation : Student, Social class : Upper middle class,I agree with Amber and Lucy. It's weird to be 'accommodated' because of my gender. There are lots of teenaged guys I know who try to be gallant with old-fashioned, chivalrous gestures, none of which I appreciate. On the other hand, many girls DO appreciate them. Hey, maybe we should all wear buttons. Heh. 'I like chivalry!' 'Chivalry sucks!' That kind of thing.User Detail :
Name : Keren26477, Gender : F, Sexual Orientation : Gay, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Jewish, Age : 17, City : Miami, State : FL Country : United States, Occupation : Student, Education level : Less than High School Diploma, Social class : Middle class,I'm a raving feminist but I certainly wouldn't expect you to give up your seat for me - we are equals and you have as much right to be comfortable as I do. I give up my seat for those who might need it more than I do, as you do. I open doors for the next person out of courtesy and also a respect for them, whoever they are (man, woman, child). I prefer a world of mutual and genuine respect and it sounds like you do too and, in this case, that she didn't. There'll always be some that want to milk the system for themselves, even when that system is being created anew, with good intentions - don't let people like her ruin things or give you the wrong impression that everyone's like her. She was just greedy and lazy.User Detail :
Name : carol19274, Sexual Orientation : Bisexual, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Agnostic, Age : 38, City : manchester, State : NA Country : United Kingdom, Occupation : education/arts worker, Education level : 4 Years of College, Social class : Lower class,I have to admit, being female, that I like it when a guy opens a door for me. I don't think that chivalry is a way to bring down women. I think it's respectful to open a door for someone, man or woman. I suppose I'm partial because I have a boyfriend who does things like that. It's just a way to show respect or love. I am 20 years old and I would rather be married to a man and not have to worry about working outside the home. But I also know that that isn't a reality in most cases. I think it's great that women are being treated more like equals. There are some things that I would never want to go through that women in the past did. But I think that woman's lib has made it harder for those of us who want to be 'stay at home mom's'. If we want to stay at home, the family income just isn't quite enough.User Detail :
Name : Lindsay, Gender : F, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Christian, Age : 20, City : Muskegon, State : MI Country : United States, Occupation : Bible Student, Education level : 2 Years of College, Social class : Middle class,
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