Dare To Ask Talk And News About Our Differences - This topic has 8 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 23 years, 10 months ago by
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- Where I live, the local Jewish community is trying to get permission to construct an Eruv on city property. They say it will be a series of poles embedded in the ground, with twine running from pole to pole. According to them, this acts as a symbolic wall and an extension of the home, thus allowing Jewish people to go places on the Sabbath and to work on the Sabbath, as they will technically still be in their home. Is it not blatantly and inherently wrong for followers of a religion to look for loopholes in the rules and commandments given to them by their God? They are basically saying, "My God said I could not do this, yet I found a way I could figure out how to get around that rule." It's not really any different than, say, figuring out a way around stealing, murdering or any other commandement. If you're going to choose to be a follower of a religion or deity, shouldn't you do so without trying to circumvent the rules?
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Name : Dondi M., Gender : M, Sexual Orientation : Bisexual, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Atheist, Age : 27, City : Vancouver, State : NA Country : Canada, Occupation : Systems Administration, Education level : 2 Years of College, Social class : Upper middle class,I guess it depends on how you look at it. If you call it an excuse for doing something that would otherwise be illegal, then it could be called a loophole. The other view is that the eruv is a means to specify the division between the permitted and the not permitted.More than 1,000 years ago, the sages carefully evaluated the letter of the law, which can be vague or confusing, and decided what procedures would be used to abide by them. In this case, the Torah (Bible) simply says that one should not work or do labor on Shabbat. The sages came up with several dozen activities that constitute labor or work; one of these (for example) is carrying. But what is carrying? A blanket prohibition would disallow carrying a plate of food from counter to table, or carrying a prayer book from its place to a seat in the Synagogue. So, they said that carrying within your immediate domain is permitted, carrying outside the domain is not. The eruv marks the boundary. The people using it don't see it as a loophole; they see it as a personalized law specifing what they individually can and can't do.
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Name : Jesse-N30801, Gender : M, Religion : Jewish, Age : 40, City : Herzliya, State : NA Country : Israel, Occupation : Engineer,First, an Eruv does not allow most types of work to be done. It simply allows for carrying outside. This includes carrying a young child and pushing a baby carriage. It isn't a loophole; it's actually part of the law, the specifics of which can be found in the Talmud. The Eruv allows only for carrying things that can be used on the Sabbath in any case. Money still cannot be carried, cars cannot be driven, etc. But small children can be brought outside, books can be carried outside, etc.Because of the complexity of building an Eruv because of getting necessary city permits (as seems to be happening in your community), generally only communities with large observant populations have an Eruv, and the size and scope can vary based on a community. Basically, the law is that you can't carry unless you have an Eruv, so this isn't a loophole.
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Name : Laura, Gender : F, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Jewish, City : Baltimore, State : MD Country : United States, Occupation : Student, Education level : Over 4 Years of College,Not being Jewish, I am not going to touch the specific topic of the eruv. However, what I hear you saying is a common question of those who do not practice religion or those who are hostile to religious orthodoxy (which I don't think is the case here). The question is "if you're going to practice the religion, why cut yourself slack?" Most orthodox religions have tenets and practices that, if followed to the letter without any interpretation, would make life unbearable. It is similar to labor unions "working to rule" when they want to create a work slowdown - impose the rules literally without taking any shortcuts. I suppose an orthodox religionist could say "It is our religion and we interpret it as we see fit. If that bothers you, then don't embrace it."User Detail :
Name : Augustine23664, Gender : M, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Catholic, Age : 38, City : Columbia, State : SC Country : United States, Education level : Over 4 Years of College, Social class : Middle class,I am jewish but not very religious. However, the orthodox custom of walking to the synagogue on saturday is one custom that has a lot to recommend it. By stringing their special string they are setting the limit of how far one can walk on saturday. The net effect of these rules is to create a 'comminity' where people have to live within easy walking distance of each other and of the synagogue. It also means that they have to move as a community and any individual who moves away leaves the community. Given the isolated existance many people live this idea should not be dismissed too readily. When it works it means that you know and can trust most of your neighbours. A very valuable condition not to be easily discarded.User Detail :
Name : joshua goldin, Gender : M, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Humanist, Age : 60+, City : College Park, State : MD Country : United States, Occupation : teacher, Education level : Over 4 Years of College,Loopholes in religion? If you're an atheist, what does it matter? The most disturbing issue here is the fact that the Jewish community wants permission to build this rope-wall on city property. If there's one thing all citizens should be vigilant in preserving, it is the separation of church and state. Regardless of one's religious beliefs or lack thereof, the separation of church and state works to everyone's benefit.User Detail :
Name : BXHammer, Gender : M, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Atheist, Age : 25, City : Denver, State : CO Country : United States, Occupation : Programmer/analyst, Education level : Over 4 Years of College, Social class : Upper middle class,I may be an outsider to the Jewish faith, but I still see the concept of an Eruv as a way of getting around a law/commandment. The way I see the whole issue is in very simple wording. 'We have a rule that says we can not do X on the Sabbath, thus we should follow that law. However, we really want to be able to do the things we're not supposed to be able to do, so if we can figure out a way to get around that rule while still technically following it, everything will be fine.' It's akin to saying 'Thou shalt not steal' but then saying that it's OK to steal if it's a loaf of bread and it's for your starving family and you're stealing from a rich person. Regardless if it's getting around stealing, or getting around carrying things, it's still figuring out a way to get around a rule that is supposed to be followed, implicitly, without question and without technicalities. What is to stop it there? If the loophole of an eruv is possible, why not make up something else that will allow you to get around other rules? I have also read from people for the eruv, that they feel the rule against carrying is unfair or unjust and it is cruel and wrong for them to have to live under such oppression, which I can't understand. If you choose to follow a religion (and it is a choice), you shouldn't complain about the rules in that religion, no?User Detail :
Name : Dondi M., Gender : M, Sexual Orientation : Bisexual, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Atheist, Age : 27, City : Vancouver, State : NA Country : Canada, Occupation : Systems Administration, Education level : 2 Years of College, Social class : Upper middle class,Every belief system that is founded by humans or amended by human intervention is going to have loopholes, in order to help those in the power structure avoid the very penalties they prescribe for others. Judaism as currently practiced has no connection with what God commanded Moses to teach the Israelites when they communed on the Mount. The religious practice called Judaism is a product of rabbinical (rabbi means teacher, not holy man, by the way) invention over the centuries. Not surprising, there have been several pretenders to the Messianic title (rabbis who pretended to be as Jesus Christ - the Savior) over the last 2,000 years. Your situation is merely one more example of 'sincere' but very misguided hypocrites further bastardizing what God originally commanded. He said that no work was to be done, and no profit or gain to be derived, and no work to be CAUSED on anyone's behalf - on the Sabbath. In our modern age, this is not feasible. Yet these folks you speak of are worrying about where they walk, and can they travel to and fro without profaning their Sabbath! Try chatting with one or two of these folks, and see if they hold any stocks, bonds, notes, retirement savings, etc. If so, they are in gross violation of the Sabbath law, since the banking system calculates interest seven days a week, and earning interest is a clear transgression of working and gaining a profit on the Sabbath. See what they say then. If they try to weasel out of this, then you will quickly see the hypocrisy of their practices.User Detail :
Name : Al, Gender : M, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Christian, Age : 49, City : Ottawa (Ontario), State : NA Country : Canada, Occupation : audio engineer, Education level : Over 4 Years of College, Social class : Middle class,A fascinating question. My answer is that God gave His laws to the Jews with the intent of bringing them closer to Him; more as a guideline to a relationship with the people He loved. In His wisdom, He knew that they could not keep ALL of these laws, so He instituted a system of sacrifices to make things right again between Him and the Jews. The Jews misunderstood this, and so they created by-laws and directives, and in doing so, left behind the spirit of the law in order to keep the letter. In doing so, they had forgotten their greatest commandment:'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is One; and you will love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. Any who dispute this answer I refer to the books of the Prophets, to whom God repeatedly illustrates the importance of obedience with love.User Detail :
Name : Lane Coley Morin Russell II, Gender : M, Sexual Orientation : Straight, Race : White/Caucasian, Religion : Pentecostal, Age : 24, City : Prescott, State : AZ Country : United States, Occupation : hotel night clerk, Education level : High School Diploma, Social class : Lower middle class,
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